Jonathan (00:16): Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode 72 of the Juvohub podcast. Your helping hand in property management education. I am your host, Jonathan Saar. And with me today is Mark Howell from Howl Creative Concepts. What's cooking, what's new? How are ya? Mark (00:35): Just you and me, man. We're cooking up some solutions and yeah, I'm doing good. Good to see you. Jonathan (00:41): Yeah. Good to see you as always we're we have an intriguing topic today. Mark (00:47): yes. Jonathan (00:48): You know, we hear the expression killing people with kindness and for our audience, we wanted to just dive into that topic a little bit, like the difference between superficial and genuine kindness is being it being kind at your core. Does it help you in your career or is it a hindrance off the top of your head Mark? Just what do you think? What do you feel about that question? Mark (01:19): For me? It absolutely means everything. It is the true tipping of the scale, a decision I make to whether either I work for you and your organization, or I won't. And if I've chosen to leave an organization because of a lack of kindness, trust me. When I say I will talk about that for probably the rest of my career, I will talk about the people that I felt were very unkind and hurtful in the organization. And that's where I feel can be the most damaging is when people feel wrong, when they feel like someone has not been kind to them, it's kind of like that. What's the saying bad publicity. Well, any publicity is good publicity, not true. Like when you have that kind of bad publicity circling around either your person or your organization, it can, it could mean whether or not people actually want to come and work for you or not. And they make those decisions based on that. Jonathan (02:18): Absolutely. Absolutely. Excellent big picture to add to this conversation. So what are we focusing on today? What are the objectives of today's episode? Mark (02:28): Yeah, we've got some juicy ones. So how can being kind or unkind when you think no one is looking affect future opportunities, whether that's for you, for them, for your organization flipping the script, being ruthless, maybe get you ahead for a short time, might get you what you want at that moment. But how can being kind last longer to be more successful, build more success. And then why rewarding, kindness breeds kindness in the workplace, which is to me a no brainer, my gosh, but we are gonna talk about it. Jonathan (03:06): Yeah. All really important objectives. And in each with its own unique components. So let's start off with the, with the first one, kindness or unkindness in secret you know, you know, so that's how we kind of started this off, like the superficial, like, who are you like at your core by not being concerned about the show, you know, that people recognize you for your kindness and not being concerned about that people are seeing you or what you're doing. Like that's just who you are one way or another. Like you're either just a grumpy person. That's just, that's the core of your being. And I think it's really easy question that would be answered. It always comes out like there's no way you can fake kindness. You can't fake it. Meanwhile, deep down in your core, you are just a jerk. You know, you're just a, you're an Oscar to the grouch. You know, this isn't a TV show, so we're not gonna go into any colorful metaphors of any, any sort whatsoever, but that's, it's going to catch, it will always catch up with you. People will find out. And then as we've talked about in previous episodes, that reputation it's sticks and that memory is imprinted. As you mentioned, when you've worked with people that were unkind, what are your thoughts, Mark? Like what does, how does it help a, a career from a career standpoint? Kindness. Mark (04:59): Yeah. So I go immediately to the emotions that have been tied to this topic for me. And I think, you know, I there's so much to unpack with this. I'm gonna try to keep it as simple as possible, but you know, it is the tipping scale from someone being a Saint to a psychopath or a sociopath, right? It's like you don't possess any of the necessary skills to have feelings for other people is what I see when I know that there is no kindness in that person or people in an organization. For me I'm taking this from the, the standpoint of am I working for someone that shows kindness or that's the way I'm thinking about this. Right? And so when I think about organizations that I have left in the past, I actually left an organization once where someone said to me, well, have they done anything to you? And I said, no, not yet. But I was like, but what I see them doing to other people, it's just a matter of time before they'll come from me the same way. What I mean by that? Is it this like when, when no one is looking, your integrity is everything, but it's what you do when no one is looking that defines your integrity. And for me, it is everything. It is everything about who you are. It is everything about the organization that I will be supporting. So yes, absolutely. I make decisions based on my future. If I feel like the organization has integrity or the people that are leading it have integrity and have any kindness in them. If I what's the statement or the saying, I have no I've said it before, when someone shows you who they are, believe them. So even when you think that you are doing all these great things for show and many leaders do that, they get on this soap box and they, you know, talk about how, oh, we're moving in the right direction and I'm gonna do this for you. And I'm leading us here and I'm doing that and I'm doing this. And it's always, I start hearing the pattern of I'm and I'm like, yeah, buddy, we're doing all the work, you know? And so that's usually the first thing for me, that's like a trigger for me. It's like, you are not doing any of this work that we are all doing out here. So I don't know, for me, it definitely shapes whether or not I will want to stay with an organization or working around people in the future for future opportunities. And what is the old statement that when someone is a great leader, people will follow, you, ask yourself, have people left other organizations to follow you to a new one. Are they still willing to follow you today? I think that would define to me if I felt like somebody was saying, I wanna go where you go, then obviously I'm a good leader. You know, I'm showing kindness. People feel like I'm genuine, I'm authentic. But yeah, I think it absolutely affects the future opportunities. Jonathan (07:52): Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Nice, nice comments. And it's like, you know, for me, it's like, what can I, can I go to bed with a, like a clear, with a clear heart, a clear, like sleep well at night, knowing that I've done what I can to be kind to people. And unfortunately there's a lot of people that I sleep quite well being Mark (08:16): Complete yes. Jonathan (08:18): Be, be beep blah. You know, and I'm, you know, so this show is for those who, who that's part of your moral character and understanding that you know, narcissistic behavior is, you know, we see that we got TV shows about it. We got, you know, politics about it. We got all kinds of things that talk about it. But in the end, when you wake up each morning and look in the mirror, you know, who do you wanna see? I guess that's what it comes down to. Yeah. So let's go to our next objective. So kind of flipping the script for a minute, you know, there again, there's people out there that, you know, that's all they're thinking about. You mentioned it earlier. Me, me, me, me, me, you know, what, what am I gonna get out of this? And every decision that I make, it's gonna, it better benefit me in the long run. That's, you know, that's not going to pave a way for, as you mentioned. I mean, how awesome is that, that if, if you, as a leader, you decide to go to another organization and, you know, unfortunate for that company that let that let that happen. But what happens is, you know, all these other people come and wanna go where you're working, just because of the type of individual that you are. That to me is the testimony of what kindness does lasting success, not this, what can I get out of it right now? Because it's about me. But that, that picture that you painted Mark, I thought was just absolutely, absolutely beautiful, you know, on what kindness can do for longevity of someone's career. Mark (10:21): Sure. Yeah. For me, you know, I think when I think back about this, this topic, this question, and even in the comments that we were just talking about, I think this ties in kind of nicely, because what is it, flip the script, you know, what is it, look, look, I get it. Like you said, politicians, the, the very wealthy many people have climbed to the top of successful organizations on the backs of other people that will never stop. It has always existed. It will always exist. There are people who seize every opportunity I call them opportunists and they don't care about creating loyal people. They care about the money, the, the reward at the end. I feel like there are consequences to all of that. At some point, you know, you may have all the jewels and riches in the world, but is there anyone around you truly that wants to be around you to help you celebrate in that? that's way too deep for our, our podcast. But when I, when I do think about something a little more simplistic, like legacy, I think what is it that you want to leave behind? What is it that you would, if you were in this organization or really any, and it doesn't have to be just for a leader, it could be for anybody listening to this that has coworkers, you work around other people. What is it that you would want for someone to say about you in 10 years from now or 20 years from now? Is it that they would remember you for being a kind caring person that nurtured their career or helped them through a difficult situation or, you know, educated them on something to me, that's why I've spent 25 years in this industry is the idea, the thought, the hope that I'm leaving behind someone that is at least a little smarter than they were yesterday, or a little wiser or their career was moved forward because of advice that I gave them. If I can change someone's life in a way where I could say, Hey, you need a good stable job, try property management. And honestly, I've brought, I think, five people, more than five people into this industry that I can just think of off the top of my head, that I know it's changed their lives. That makes me feel good. Like, those are the things that I look for about this topic, but in our industry. And, and for me, like that's kindness, that's me thinking, what is it that I can do for you that puts you in a much better place for your own growth, your own future? Because honestly, at the end of all of it, that's what I would hope somebody would say about me one day when there's two younger, more attractive guys doing a podcast about, you know, maybe great speakers or leaders. I hope our names are mentioned somewhere out there, Jonathan dang. Jonathan (13:16): You had to go, you had to go down that younger, younger path. Mark (13:20): . Jonathan (13:21): Yeah, no, I totally, I totally agree. I totally agree. And, and I think, you know, you mentioned people that you've helped and I know people have helped us, Mark (13:34): Right. Jonathan (13:35): Well, I again, this isn't doing this, not no patent on the back, but we're talking about this because I, I believe that both you and I do our best to have that quality of kindness and I have lost count. I see the, how it's reciprocal, like when, when I need something, when something is not good in my life, or I need help on a topic, I just have to just throw some texts out, put a couple things out on social media and it's like, boom, it's there. Yeah. The, the people in, in our network are, are there, that's another point for me of why kindness breeds, longevity, overall, life, career, whatever you wanna you know, associate it with that's, that's the long term benefits, because we're all going to have situations where it's like, you know what, I need a new job, or I need, I need a resource to help fix this, this problem I'm having on my job or whatever, you know, the list could be on and on. And I, and I applaud so many on especially on our LinkedIn network and I sit there and it just makes my heart, it just warms my heart to see acts of kindness. Yeah. People have a question and there it is. There's our community. There's our, our property management peeps who are just out there trying to help trying to give a resource, trying to give a reference, trying to help someone find a job, trying to help a company, fill a position, you know, this, the list goes on and on of where we see kindness in our industry every single day. And it's just, it's just awesome. It's just amazing. Mark (15:43): I agree with you a hundred percent. I think that it, it makes me feel so happy when I see people in our industry truly like reaching down there, lifting up the, the newbies as we might call them, educating them, putting them in great paths for wonderful careers. And, and look, the, the beautiful thing, like you said about our industry is I see more of that than I do the negative side of it. I think there are more people that truly want people to be successful in our industry. And that's why that is truly why we've stayed in it for as long as we have, because there's just so much positivity in it. So, yeah. Agreed. Jonathan (16:20): Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. So that leads us to our last objective gets a you know, right down to the core of what we do each day. How does that, and I think we kind of touched on it with this social networking a little bit, but why does, or why does rewarding kindness breed kindness in the workplace? So in other words, and I know you talk about this a lot, Mark, in, in your classes, it's just, all right. So we're talking about employee recognition. So employee recognition, you know, who is least the most departments for the year who has closed the most maintenance orders for the year? You know, you got all these statistical items and then you get something along this like rewarding, rewarding, kindness. What are your thoughts, your comments, what have you seen? Mark (17:07): Yeah, I mean, look, I, I think it's fundamental. I think most, like you said, organizations have things put in place to recognize your good behavior, or like you say, the, the rewards of meeting a goal, but think about what that could look like as getting, receiving a reward for being kind that's amazing, you know, like the, the kindest person and in our organization of 2022 is, you know, Mark Howell because of these are the things that he did that were outside of the normal scope. It could be taking care of your internal customer, taking care of the customer. What's sad is that in today's world, I don't even see us really stepping up to do a lot of that for our customer. Sometimes in our industry out there on site, it's like customer service is kind of decaying a little bit. So I, I wonder like if it's decaying that way to the external customer, what's happening to the internal customer, you know, the people that you work with. so I, I think it's a fascinating idea to create a program internally that rewards kindness and act of kindness, or it's like Oprah did so many years ago that pay it forward campaign. See if you can create some type of pain forward campaign inside your organization where, you know, one person can start it at a corporate level, I'm giving you this, but you have to promise to give it to three other people in a, you know, maybe smaller scale, but have a scope around it, see how far that can spread through the organization. I've always believed in it, you know, and my parents, maybe this is a Southern thing, but always raised me kill 'em with kindness. And so what I learned as I got older, I didn't always wanna do that. I wanted to meet people with their nasty behavior with more nasty behavior and it never worked out for me. It never ended up in a great result. And so I think back to that statement as a child, you know, like, well, mark, you gotta learn to kill him with kindness that the reward is you will gain so much more out of other people. It's kind of like, I hate to throw out a bunch of statements here, old analogies, but you get more bees with honey. People want to be around people who are nice. I mean, honestly, like if you are going to walk around with the nasty attitude, I will not be standing next to you. I just don't have patience and time for it anymore. And most people today, don't right. That's the reward, you know, you might find yourself with a few more friends or, you know, people that actually wanna work for you. Jonathan (19:48): Absolutely. Yeah. And, and it, and it lends itself to what, what is your company culture? Like, what are you trying to promote? So whatever that may be in internally, that's, that's fantastic to kind of foster that foster that environment. And, and it does, it's just, it's just contagious, you know? It's yeah. It's like people, you know, naturally gravitate towards a campfire on a cold night. Mark (20:21): Yeah. Jonathan (20:21): , that's, that's good. That's where the that's where it's warm. That's where it's cozy. That's where it's inviting. That's right. And all the grumpy people they're out in the woods somewhere is getting eaten by mosquitoes. Mark (20:35): Yes. Or maybe a bear let's just finish 'em off and let, 'em get eaten by a bear. Jonathan (20:40): stay away from the bears. Mark (20:43): Jonathan (20:44): Very good. Okay. Well, awesome show. Yeah. Let's let's work, you know, community. Let's do our part lead with kindness, make workplace kindness possible, you know, in our industry, property management, it's all about kindness. You know, we're helping people have homes. Mark (21:03): That's right. Jonathan (21:04): So, you know, live it. Yeah. That's, that's what we do. Very good. All right, man. How can people get in, in contact with you connect with you? Absolutely. Mark (21:15): Yes. My name is Mark Howell, H O W E L L I'm on LinkedIn. You can find my company website at howlcreativeconcepts.com. That Howell is spelled H O W L like howl at the moon. But howlcreativeconcepts.com. Jonathan (21:29): Cool. Very good. My name is Jonathan Saar. This has been episode 72 of the Juvohub podcast. You're helping hand in property management. Please look us up on YouTube or on your favorite podcast station and connect with us there until next time class dismiss.